2 SEPTEMBER 1940PURANI: I read Gandhi's queer argument about non-violence with Kher and others. Kher said that during the Bombay riot even the non-violent leaders refused to risk and sacrifice their lives to stop the riot. Gandhi says, "That supports my argument." (Laughter) I am simply at a loss to understand how it supports his argument. Then he says, "If they had sacrificed themselves, then the riot would have stopped." SRI AUROBINDO: "If" they had! All depends on "ifs" and expectations. Gandhi is not a psychologist. During his Dandi march, though they didn't do any acts of violence, the leaders' minds were full of violence. In fact it was because of the opportunity violence would give that they joined the movement. And then he supports prohibition. Prohibition under compulsion is violence. There is no compulsion unless there is violence. PURANI: He says a child has to be forced to do good things and that this wouldn't be violence. But then the British Government can say that it is for our good that they are doing all these things, that it is they who have given unity to India. SRI AUROBINDO : That is true. Only, the trouble is, we haven't got that unity. (Laughter) Page -867 After this there was some talk on Science, especially Relativity, which started by reference to the term "light-year" which Sri Aurobindo used in The Life Divine. Nolini Sen had pointed out that scientists didn't use it in that sense, so the term was changed to "light-cycle". Jatin Bal supplied many quotations from Jeans, Eddington, etc., on various points. In our discussion Sri Aurobindo refused to accept Time as a dimension of Space. Purani noted, in connection with the complicated mathematical formulas involved, that scientists had first thought Science would be understood by everybody. Now only the scientists can understand anything about Science. SRI AUROBINDO: They are becoming metaphysical physicists. It is like poetry. Dr. Leavis said that poetry would be understood by fewer and fewer people gradually. PURANI: Scientists say that the sum of universal energy is always the same. SRI AUROBINDO: I do not agree. Is it proved? If not, why can't there be something behind that is constantly putting forth energy into the universe? About the Law of Entropy Sri Aurobindo also didn't agree. SRI AUROBINDO: One sun may be losing heat, but another sun may be created and thus perpetual creation go on. Nobody knows when creation began. PURANI: They say, for instance, that from a machine some energy is always lost, and for that reason a machine can't operate perpetually. SRI AUROBINDO: That is about man-made machines. Nature is cleverer than man and, besides, in future machines may be created which will go on perpetually. What happens to the energy that is lost? PURANI: It goes to the common stock of spent energy. It is no longer available. SRI AUROBINDO: Why? Why can't it be available in another form? What has been available once is always available. PURANI : When you burn coal for energy, you can't get the coal back. SRI AUROBINDO: That is true about coal because it disintegrates. Page -868 Sri Aurobindo also said that the Quantum Theory was tending towards our Indian Vayu theory without the scientists knowing it. About the deflection of starlight towards the sun, he asked: SRI AUROBINDO: Why should it curve towards the sun? PURANI: Because the sun contains matter, they say. Suleiman is now questioning Einstein's theory. He stands for Newton. SRI AUROBINDO: Einstein's theory seems to me fantastic. (At this time some dogs were barking outside.) There, they are protesting against Einstein! 7 SEPTEMBER 1940SRI AUROBINDO: Radhakrishnan finds contradictory statements in Buddhism about the Self. In one place, he says, it doesn't recognise the Self and in another it takes the Self as the sole refuge and giver of enlightenment. PURANI: Yes, that is a famous quotation. But we thought that Buddhism doesn't recognise the Self. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, perhaps it means the phenomenal self. SATYENDRA: Krishnaprem gives a different interpretation to Buddhism. He says Nirvana is only a half-way house. SRI AUROBINDO: That agrees with my experience. SATYENDRA: In one of his letters I saw that he didn't agree with you about some idea of Buddhism. I don't remember exactly what it was. SRI AUROBINDO: What I might have said or now say about Buddhism is based on the current idea about Buddhism. Krishnaprem puts his own interpretation. NIRODBARAN: He follows the Mahayana school. SRI AUROBINDO: Mahayana is nearer to the Advaita school. SATYENDRA: Even Mahayana teachings may be a modern interpretation. Nobody knows what Buddha said. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. My impression is that even Mahayana has no clear idea about the ultimate concepts. Page -869 8 SEPTEMBER 1940NIRODBARAN: Charu Dutt is impressed by the fact that here there are apparently no demigods, while in Shantiniketan you find at every corner such demigods popping up their heads. Anilbaran, Nolini, etc. are inclined to keep themselves more behind and aloof than in front. SRI AUROBINDO: I see. Anilbaran and Nolini are not likely to interfere with anybody. Suren and Ramachandra may. CHAMPAKLAL: Here the condition or atmosphere is quite different. There is no scope for anybody's domination, even if they wanted to. Isn't that correct? SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, the desire to dominate is in everybody, but there is no field here because of the Mother. CHAMPAKLAL: Yes, that is what I meant. Anilbaran couldn't understand one quotation in The Life Divine taken from the Rig Veda: "By the Names of the Lord and hers they shaped and measured the force of the Mother of Light; wearing might after might of that Force as a robe the lords of Maya shaped out Form in this Being. The Masters of Maya shaped all by His Maya; the Fathers who have divine vision set Him within as a child that is to be born." SRI AUROBINDO: What is the difficulty? It is very simple. PURANI: He is asking because he will have to explain it to his class. He wants to know what is meant by "Names" and how "might after might" can be worn as a robe. (Loud laughter) , SRI AUROBINDO: What has become of his head? It is a metaphor and why can't it be used as a metaphor? He can tell his students that these are mystic expressions and that they will have to become mystics to understand them. PURANI: Then he will have an easy escape. SRI AUROBINDO (taking up the passage): "Names" means ideas, significances, and as for "might after might", the Divine Force is of various kinds, each of which one takes up just as one wears a robe; all very simple. Ask him to use his mystic mind instead of the professorial one. Page -870 EVENINGPURANI: It seems Bonvain is going to declare for De Gaulle. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. The British Government has put pressure on him. He must either declare for De Gaulle or the British Government will take possession of Pondicherry. Purani then reported that there had been a meeting of the Council in which David and others had spoken about the matter; some, especially Baron and the bank manager, favoured the idea, others opposed it. SRI AUROBINDO: Baron's voice seems to have been drowned out in a murmur of disapproval. SATYENDRA: But why should there be any difficulty? The Governor has been advised by Pétain: "Marchez avec les voisins."¹ SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, but this is not "avec" but "vers les voisins",² more than what was asked. But this is the first time the British Government has given such an ultimatum. They are feeling stronger, perhaps, after their alliance with America in the matter of the naval base. 9 SEPTEMBER 1940SRI AUROBINDO (to Purani): Any more news about French India joining De Gaulle? PURANI: It seems the Governor has sent the resolution to the Viceroy. SRI AUROBINDO: I understand that the French officials here have made one condition with the Indian Government that if war breaks out in Indo-China they may be allowed to send troops there, and the Indian Government has consented. PURANI: But how is it possible? Indo-China is under the Pétain Government. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. So they may get shot by them. And it will be bad for us. ¹ 'Go along with your neighbours." ²Not "with" but "towards your neighbours". Page -871 PURANI : Scientists say that the light of a star passing close to the sun is deflected towards the sun; the light curves in this way because of the curvature of space. SRI AUROBINDO: How does space get a curvature and manage to do all these stunts? PURANI: Mathematically a curved space has been demonstrated. SRI AUROBINDO: Mathematics is like reason. As by reason you can logicise anything, so by mathematics you can prove anything. PURANI: But one has no means to verify these things. And the difficulty is that if anybody questions them, these scientists at once reply that you must first know mathematics. All these people get some idea first and then try to fit the idea into their work. SRI AUROBINDO: What Arjava said seems to be true, that according to the way you approach Nature, Nature will answer you. PURANI: And they say that mathematics is most impersonal. SRI AUROBINDO: Nonsense! They used to say the same thing about Science. Algebra and geometry are like designs. They offer no theory on the conception of the world, but only a structure. 10 SEPTEMBER 1940Yesterday again there had been a rumour that the Governor was not going to declare for De Gaulle. PURANI: It has come in the Hindu like that: "The Governor announces..." So there can't be any truth in that rumour. SRI AUROBINDO: It is true he has declared for De Gaulle and also that there won't be any mobilisation for Indo-China if a fight breaks out there. The two things we wanted have happened: that he should reject the Pétain Government and also any involvement in this Indo-China affair. But why are these people, including Dr André, in favour of sending troops to Indo-China? NIRODBARAN: Perhaps because Dr. André has his brother there. SRI AUROBINDO: Oh, his brother is there? PURANI: Yes, and many other relatives. Many people here have their relations there. Page -872 SRI AUROBINDO: But instead of sending troops, André should bring his relatives back. (Laughter) NIRODBARAN: M. N. Roy has been expelled from the Congress. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. I don't understand the reason. NIRODBARAN: Because he makes freedom dependent on British support. SRI AUROBINDO: But he is talking about world freedom and it is quite true that unless Nazism is destroyed, there won't be any freedom anywhere. PURANI: And if Hitler wins, India's freedom has no chance. SRI AUROBINDO: Not in a century. NIRODBARAN: Roy has also said that we must give unconditional support to gain the sympathy of the British public. SRI AUROBINDO: He is right. What sympathy the British have at present will cool down if India persists in this attitude. They will say, "We have promised them Dominion Status after the war, what more do they want?" They can't understand fine distinctions. 11 SEPTEMBER 1940PURANI :Udar has got an unexpurgated edition of Mem Kampf. If you want to see — SRI AUROBINDO: I don't want to waste my time on it. PURANI: Charu Dutt says that the modern poets are trying to follow Pope and Dryden in their play with words, their metrical devices, etc. SRI AUROBINDO: How? Pope and Dryden are very clear in what they say, while you can't make out anything of the Modernists. As regards metre, Pope and Dryden are formalists and limited. One may say they don't play with words. The Modernists are unintelligible and their irregularities are eccentric. The only similarity they have is in their intellectuality and the ingenuity of their mind. Sahana wrote an aphorism in which darkness indicates unwillingness to receive the Light. Dilip didn't agree. SRI AUROBINDO: It is partly true. In one state it may be true, but in the state of inconscience there is a temporary obstruction Page -873 which produces an incapacity to receive even if one has the will. You can say it is also an unwillingness, but one of nature, not a personal unwillingness. In other cases, the mind may be unwilling, or it may be willing but the vital may not agree. In these cases you can say that one is unwilling.
Then there was some talk about Kalidasa's Raghuvamsha and Kumarasambhava. It seems that X found Raghuvamsha full of problems, questions of morality and immorality.
SRI AUROBINDO (to Purani): Have you been struck by a great number of problems in Raghuvamsha? Kalidasa being concerned with morality and immorality? PURANI (laughing): I thought Kalidasa was the last person to be concerned with them. He was more concerned with beauty, the aesthetic aspect. No ethical question troubled him. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. If it was a feeling, he was concerned with the beauty of the feeling, if an idea, with the beauty of the idea. PURANI : Some people — Bankim was one, I think — are trying to make out that Kumarasambhava is earlier than Raghuvamsha. SRI AUROBINDO: I don't think so. Raghuvamsha is brilliant while Kumarasambhava is more mature, has more power and energy.
13 SEPTEMBER 1940EVENINGPURANI: Anilbaran seems to hold that the individual has no selective action. He is only an instrument, a puppet, an automaton of the Divine Will. He has no individual choice. SRI AUROBINDO: The individual is also the Supreme. SATYENDRA: Yes, it is the Supreme that has become transcendent, universal and individual. SRI AUROBINDO: How does Anilbaran come to his view of the individual? PURANI: He quotes the Gita where Arjuna is said to be an instrument of the Divine. SATYENDRA: But why then does Krishna ask him also to be manmana, madbhakta (my-minded, my devotee)? Page -874 SRI AUROBINDO: Quite so. And why does he ask Arjuna to get rid of Ahankara? (Sri Aurobindo quoted the passage.) Who is that "you" there? If he makes the individual a mere puppet, an automaton, my whole philosophy comes to nothing. Doesn't Anilbaran know that the individual has a Purusha who is free to choose, accepting or rejecting? If according to his idea everything is done by the Divine Will, then a murderer can say that it is the Divine who is committing the murder and in that case there is no necessity of doing Yoga because everything is being done by the Divine Will and so everything is perfect; there is nothing to change. And we shall have to concede Shastri's demand to supply him with two thousand books because it is the Divine Will! He says everybody doing anything here is right, because it is the universal Divine Force, that is acting through him. About Arjuna, even if he was an instrument, he was acting according to his own nature, in his own way, by using his bow, and not like Bhishma and Bhima. There the selective action comes in. Besides, he has been asked nimitta matra bhava, to be an instrument for a particular purpose. It is true that whatever is the ultimate Divine Will must fulfil itself, but that doesn't mean the individual has no choice and is an automaton. These are fundamental metaphysical facts true in another plane of consciousness or spirituality. When one brings them down into the practical field, they create great difficulties. SATYENDRA: Only one who has gone into such planes of consciousness can say that everything is done by the Divine. In the plane of Ignorance, one can't say that; we would all come to Maya then. PURANI: Mother also said that each truth has its own plane. What is true on one plane may not be true on another. SRI AUROBINDO: The Supreme takes three positions: transcendent, universal and individual. But it is the position that makes the difference. Here, if the individual doesn't choose, where is the place of effort? Why do we insist on and demand consent? If we were to act without consent, it would create much difficulty. And, if, after proceeding on a wrong path, one realises it, he won't be able to come back because it is the Divine Will that has led him there. Then Nolin Bihari and some others would be quite right in saying that the Divine Will was behind all their actions. Even when we contradicted him, he was quite right in insisting on his own way. PURANI: Anilbaran would say that even the selective action is chosen by the Divine. Page -875 SRI AUROBINDO: Then the individual is the Divine and there is no longer any individual and we come to Shankara. What is the meaning of my insistence on the One and the Many? Anilbaran seems to have a rigid mind. If he reads my philosophy in that way, he will never understand it. It has to be taken as a whole. (After some time to Purani) You have seen that the Pétain Government is in difficulty. PURANI: Yes. The Axis is threatening them with complete occupation. But it would be good if they did. The French will then be obliged to put up resistance again. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. I hope the news is true. PURANI: People have submitted to all this mainly because of Pétain . SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, they thought, "After all it is Pétain !" PURANI: And now if Pétain is forced out, it will be difficult to hold the people. SRI AUROBINDO: Then also, "After all, Pétain ?" (Laughter)
14 SEPTEMBER 1940PURANI: Anilbaran says you have written in The Mother that one has to be an instrument of the Divine. SRI AUROBINDO: But that is about work only. An individual is not only an instrument. He is a lover (Bhakta) and knower (Jnani) as well. If I have written about the instrument, I have also written about effort and rejection in the earlier part. If he says that passivity is an intermediate stage, that is another matter. Otherwise, by simple passivity you expose yourself to various forces, as Lele did, thinking that everything is being done by the Divine. PURANI: Besides, one can't lift one passage out of its context and apply it in a general way. SRI AUROBINDO: I have very clearly said that the individuals not an automaton. His consent is required. He has to be a conscious, living and consenting instrument. I think Anilbaran is unconsciously influenced by the Advaita idea of the One being real and the Many being Maya. The One is real and the Many are also real, just bacause the One is real. If that is correct, then the individual must be real. PURANI: Yes, otherwise there is no individuality. Each one would be like everyone else. Page -876 SRI AUROBINDO: If he says the individual is a passive automaton, one may ask, "What are you doing all the time?" or "There is no you, is there?" PURANI: Another point he wants to know: you have spoken of two Mayas, the higher and the lower. He is asking where one goes after passing beyond both. To the Akshara? SRI AUROBINDO: Damn the Kshara and Akshara. Why does he want to bring in the Akshara? One overpasses the higher Maya and goes to the Transcendent. First, as I said, one embraces the lower Maya to overpass it and then one overpasses the higher — Para Prakriti - after embracing it. SATYENDRA: He seems to be influenced by the Gita. PURANI: Yes, so he wants to know if, after overpassing these Mayas, one can remain in Akshara Purusha. SRI AUROBINDO: He can if he wants to. But that is withdrawing from all Nature, not transcending it. You have to pass through all these aspects to go to the originating Source.
EVENING
A quotation was supplied from The Life Divine¹ in which the individual is described as a dynamo or channel and afterwards is merged in the Cosmic. Sri Aurobindo read the passage.
SRI AUROBINDO: There is no difficulty. I have said here, "the dynamo selected" — I haven't said who selects. It may be the Divine Will or Nature. And even when the individual is merged in the Cosmic, the individual character remains. But the question of selective action of the individual doesn't arise from this passage.
All this took place before the walk. Afterwards, when Sri Aurobindo sat on the bed, Champaklal beckoned to me to give him the chamber-pot as he occasionally needed it after the exercise. I was hesitant. Then he himself asked for it. Dr. Becharlal had not noticed it and so Champaklal gave him a call too. As Champaklal was insisting on it, all of us, including Sri Aurobindo, looked at Champaklal and laughed.
¹SABCL vol. 18, pp. 543--44. Page -877 SRI AUROBINDO: The question is now: who Calls? The dynamo, Nature or Champaklal? If not Champaklal, is it I or Nature? (Laughter) But I think it is Champaklal because my need was not urgent. (Laughter, and Champaklal abashed) Take the example of a machine. The machine is driven by an electric force. Now, is the Force driving the machine or is there a man behind it? Whichever it is, if a pig is put into the machine to be cut up, the machine will put out bacon or sausages. It won't put out anything else. You can't make the machine move like a train. It has its own characteristics according to which it will work. If such be the case with a machine, how much more so with man who is conscious being? It makes it all the more complicated. And even if an individual is a perfect automaton, a passive instrument of the Divine Will, here too he has to act only according to that Will. He has to reject and choose amongst all other forces which are not that. Then he performs the action of rejection. He is no more an automaton. And his very calling for the Divine Grace may be an interference. SATYENDRA: Besides, one has first to know what the Divine Will is. SRI AUROBINDO: Quite so. It is true that ultimately everything works out according to the Divine Will and fulfils the Divine Purpose. But that doesn't mean that the individual has no choice, no selection. SATYENDRA: These are truths of a higher spiritual consciousness where one knows what the Divine Will is and sees or perceives it acting everywhere through Nature. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, here in the Ignorance there are various forces and possibilities and one has to choose from all these. When the soul came into the manifestation, it was not that God threw it down on earth by force, but that the soul willingly chose to come down. There was no compulsion by the Divine. Anilbaran may be influenced by the determinism of Nature in the Gita. But that is not the whole thing. There the Purusha also comes in. The Purusha may dissent to something but still Nature carries it out or the Purusha may assent to it while Nature refuses. That is what happens in Yoga. Nature goes on repeating its own habits and preferences against the Purusha's consent till the power of the Purusha so increases that it can assert itself over the Prakriri. Anilbaran may also be speaking from an ideal point of view, but Page -878 there too discrimination by the individual comes in. Will you remember all that? PURANI (laughing): At least I will remember the substance. SRI AUROBINDO: Have you read Anilbaran's article in the Vedanta Kesari? I just glanced through it. He says that it is the soul that enjoys and suffers — a very astounding remark to make. And he seems also to have said that the soul is wholly responsible for a new mind, life and body in the next birth. What then becomes of the Karma theory? Surely the editor will contradict him. PURANI: I haven't read it. I will go through it. But how can he say that the Soul enjoys and suffers? SRI AUROBINDO: In a way you can say that the soul takes up the essence or Rasa of all experiences, holds and supports them. But the way he has put it, makes the soul subject to the experiences. Anilbaran has a fighting mind, so his statements are put in such a way as to evoke protest, contradictions, etc. If the soul or the psychic being took an entirely new mind, vital and body, then the law of Karma would not be binding in the next life. It is not a tabula rasa that it begins with. It collects and gathers from the past life's experiences whatever is necessary for the next life, adds what new force it can bring in and takes up a new instrument to fulfil that evolution.
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